In this insightful episode, author Jeff Giles delves into his creative journey, tackling topics such as imposter syndrome, the role of skepticism in storytelling, and the art of crafting multi-dimensional villains. Jeff and Ryan explore the challenges of transitioning from nonfiction to fiction, the complexities of character development, and the difficulty of delivering satisfying endings. They discuss the importance of research in fiction, the balance of genres, and trusting characters to guide the narrative. The conversation also highlights the struggles of marketing and self-promotion in the indie comics world, the impact of diversity in storytelling, and the emotional and practical hurdles writers face. Jeff shares his thoughts on the transformative role of AI in music and writing, the evolving landscape of creativity in the digital age, and the need for ethical guardrails in AI usage. He also provides a glimpse into his current projects, including a novel and two non-fiction books, offering valuable insights into his writing process and the realities of book sales and marketing.
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Summary
In this insightful episode, author Jeff Giles delves into his creative journey, tackling topics such as imposter syndrome, the role of skepticism in storytelling, and the art of crafting multi-dimensional villains. Jeff and Ryan explore the challenges of transitioning from nonfiction to fiction, the complexities of character development, and the difficulty of delivering satisfying endings. They discuss the importance of research in fiction, the balance of genres, and trusting characters to guide the narrative. The conversation also highlights the struggles of marketing and self-promotion in the indie comics world, the impact of diversity in storytelling, and the emotional and practical hurdles writers face. Jeff shares his thoughts on the transformative role of AI in music and writing, the evolving landscape of creativity in the digital age, and the need for ethical guardrails in AI usage. He also provides a glimpse into his current projects, including a novel and two non-fiction books, offering valuable insights into his writing process and the realities of book sales and marketing.
Takeaways
- Imposter syndrome is a common hurdle for creatives.
- The persistence of an idea can indicate its worth.
- Skepticism and critical thinking are essential in today’s world.
- Villains should be multi-dimensional and relatable.
- Research can enhance storytelling, even in fantasy.
- Balancing genres can create a unique narrative experience.
- Characters often dictate the direction of the story.
- Sticking the landing in a story is a challenging task.
- Internal conflicts can be more impactful than external battles.
- Creative processes can evolve over time, especially during significant life events. Endings are often the hardest part of writing.
- Choosing a unique path in storytelling leads to better outcomes.
- Skepticism can coexist with an open mind about possibilities.
- Writing fiction can be as structured as nonfiction.
- Overcoming barriers is essential for creative growth.
- The muse can be dulled by routine writing assignments.
- Creative work can be financially taxing, especially in comics.
- Diversity in comics enriches the storytelling landscape.
- Networking is crucial for indie creators.
- Self-promotion is a necessary but exhausting part of being a writer. The first book’s performance can be affected by preparation.
- Many authors do significant legwork regardless of their following.
- The perception of what constitutes a bestseller is often misleading.
- Art has been devalued in the digital age, impacting sales.
- AI is reshaping the music industry and creative jobs.
- Jeff is working on a detective novel inspired by Chinatown.
- Creative blocks can be alleviated by switching tasks.
- Inspiration often strikes in unexpected moments, like in the shower.
- Technology can streamline creative processes but poses job risks.
- The need for ethical considerations in AI usage is paramount.
Ryan George (00:12)
Hey everyone, I’m here with author Jeff Giles and we’re here to talk about a really interesting book that he has out right now. So Jeff, how are doing today?
Jeff (00:22)
I am great. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you making the space for me.
Ryan George (00:26)
Yeah, no problem. Thank you for being on the podcast. Yeah, there’s a lot, a lot to talk about. actually really, really interested to get your insights and kind of how you came to your story. But before we get to that, we always like to ask any creative, like what’s your kind of origin story as a creative? Like what got you, know, what’s the through line that got you to the point where you’re, you know, you’re, writing books and telling your stories.
Jeff (00:54)
This is my first novel, the first two books I wrote.
Even, my feelings before writing my first non-fiction book and my feelings before writing this novel were pretty similar in that both times I thought someone should write this and it plainly is not going to be me because I just didn’t think I had it in me. yeah.
Ryan George (01:24)
Mm.
Jeff (01:29)
I suppose that’s part of the origin story is thinking that I’m not qualified and then doing it anyway. But beyond that, I’ve been writing for money for a very long time. I started writing about music when I was in my teens and I’ve been a culture writer off and on ever since. So I’ve done a lot of writing about music and film and television and interviewing people who make
Ryan George (01:33)
Interesting, yeah.
Jeff (01:57)
music and film and television that’s been a big part of my career. And how did that happen? I don’t know. guess I just, I enjoyed doing it. I felt like I was pretty good at it. And I kept finding people who agreed enough to pay me to do it. So yeah.
Ryan George (02:06)
Okay.
you
So I guess, interesting question. I think everyone deals with some level of like, don’t know, imposter syndrome or the feeling that like you’re not able to do it. But as somebody who has an extensive writing background, what was the disconnect for you as far as like being able to take that step from writing about things you like and non-fiction, right? To writing fiction and telling stories. Like what was the, I guess, where was the disconnect? I guess it’s like a three-part question. Where was the disconnect?
How did you, how were you able to kind of bridge that or fix that? And then what propelled you to kind of really get, know, move forward? And then I guess what gave you the confidence to continue the story?
Jeff (02:57)
Yeah, I feel like many people who create can relate to this. Maybe you can, maybe you can’t. I kind of think that one of the biggest tests for whether an idea is worth pursuing or not is how long it nags at you. That’s happened to me a couple of times. The first book that I wrote,
Ryan George (03:19)
and
Jeff (03:24)
was an oral history of a long running daytime drama called One Life to Live.
I interviewed the music director for that show. got to know him a little bit. He told me a bunch of stories from behind the scenes. And after a while I was like, this should really be a book. And he said, yeah, you should do it. And I thought.
but then I did it. And then with this novel, I worked with somebody who, so this book is about a world renowned debunker of paranormal phenomena who dedicates his entire life to proving that there’s no such thing as the afterlife. And then he dies and he’s very embarrassed to discover that he has become a ghost. And I had a coworker who,
Her go-to whenever I made her upset was to threaten me that she would haunt me from beyond the grave. And she’s half my age. And so I thought I would always tell her, you know, that there’s no way that’s ever going to happen. And one day I said, I’m going to haunt you from the on the grave. And she said, you don’t even believe in ghosts. And I said, you’re right. I don’t. And that’s very funny. And so I just, you know, that got me to thinking about how funny it would be if you really didn’t believe in the afterlife and then you learned that there was one. And then I thought,
Ryan George (04:19)
Thanks.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (04:45)
What kind of person would really strenuously believe that there are no, there’s no such thing as ghosts. And, and you know, who would you have to be to really be upset that you’re wrong?
And so that’s how I came up with the idea behind this character, Langley Powell. And the way the book started was I…
I wanted to get it done. wanted the book to exist. I wanted to read it. I didn’t think I could write it. And so I went to a friend of mine who I collaborated with in the past and I said, how about if we do this together? I’ll write a chapter, you write a chapter. I’ll write a chapter, you write a chapter. And the way that it worked was I wrote one, he wrote one, and then I wrote three or four. And when that happened, he came back to me and he said,
It’s pretty plain to me that this is not meant to be a collaboration. You need to be the one to write this. And so that, I guess, is how I got the confidence to do it, is just by doing it.
Ryan George (05:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s fair. think it’s a, you know, I think I definitely resonate with the idea of like something gnawing at you. And I kind of had a similar experience in that. you know, so I’m like in my early 40s and I probably had this idea for a novel maybe 20 years ago, maybe even later, maybe like 19. had this idea for a story about a very specific character. And I remember just over the course of maybe 15 years, like,
running, I constantly run the story in my head and it was always there, but I never thought I was good enough to write. and, but it was just gnawing, constantly gnawing at me. I thought, maybe I’ll make it a comic or maybe I’ll write a script or something. You know, I didn’t think I could write prose. over the last, and then over, COVID, I just started, I was like something, I was listening to some audio books and there was one author, but also a narrator that that’s what clicked for me. was like that voice. I just heard that voice in my head reading the story.
And I just started writing. And that’s what got me to write it. And I’m at the point now where I’m like, just finishing the draft, because I kind of then took a detour into writing comics and spent the last couple of years just solely focused on comics. But a couple of things have happened in the last few weeks or a couple of months that have made me think I got to focus back on this. But it’s like, yeah, I know that feeling of like just having it gnaw at you. And you just need that little push to kind of get to to writing.
Jeff (07:10)
Yeah!
I’m glad to hear that you’re being pulled back in that direction. And also, I think there are probably about a billion books that were written during COVID. mean, this novel was written during COVID. yeah.
Ryan George (07:16)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, think it was this time. think obviously there was a lot wrong with that time period, but I think if there was a silver lining, it was some a bit of self reflection. There was time at home like we were very fortunate that like my wife and I both are, you know, for the most part, like we had our jobs, at least through most of it, like I was furloughed, but then was able to kind of land on my feet and everything. But like there was all this extra time where I actually had to like think, I can do the stuff I wanted to do that I can actually start doing.
Jeff (07:31)
Yeah.
Ryan George (07:51)
and got the wheels turning so that when things have gotten back to normal, I’m still focused on those things. And so it was like that little silver lining, where obviously it wasn’t as easy for a lot of other people, but we…
Jeff (07:58)
Yeah.
Yes.
Ryan George (08:03)
So anyway, so getting to Langley Powell, so I’m really interested because that personally like, and you kind of answered one of my questions already, but I’m very much like a skeptic and somebody who follows like skeptical, it’s tangentially kind of connected to the skeptical movement. Like I’m not somebody that’s not my life, but like it’s something that is important to me. And I think especially in these times, just science and skepticism is incredibly important. It’s more important than ever.
Jeff (08:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ryan George (08:31)
And, you know, so I was really curious about where, you know, coming up with how you came up with the idea and the angle that you came at it from. So you kind of answered that, that like, you’re more the skeptic that thought this would be interesting rather than like the person on the other side that thought, this would be an interesting story. Like to point the finger at the skeptic, I guess.
Jeff (08:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, I didn’t want there to be any… Underlying the entire narrative is the idea that this guy Langley is sort of pompous and needs to have the air lab, his tires a little bit. But also, I didn’t want the villains in the story to be one dimensional either. I wanted you to be able to understand the point of view.
from both sides, but yes, I am much more inclined to be skeptical. And I 100 % agree with you that skeptical, critical thinking and skepticism is more important than ever. And I don’t know what’s gonna happen to fix that in this country.
Ryan George (09:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that it’s been, you know, yeah, not to get too political, but yeah, it’s like it’s been a bit of an existential crisis. think like, I don’t know, you know, how I think we need to, we need to, you know, media literacy and critical thinking and, you know, science literacy, all those things are incredibly important. And I don’t know what direction our education system is going to go. yeah, it’s a little scary. But
Jeff (09:44)
Yeah
Uh-huh.
critical thinking.
Yeah. It’s very scary, yeah.
Ryan George (10:08)
Yeah. now, so now with this, we mentioned that was interesting. So about your villain, so what did you how do you approach that? So because I totally agree. I think that’s another thing, again, a parallel for my own thinking as far as writing is what do you do to make a villain be a villain, but also not be one dimensional? Like, how do you how do you approach that? Like writing that type of a character?
Jeff (10:29)
I think that the current political climate probably helped quite a bit. I I am diametrically opposed to the people who are in power right now or who are about to retake the wheel. But I think that if all you’re doing is dunking on somebody, it doesn’t make for very interesting story. And I think that there are reasons that people are attracted to authoritarianism and fascism.
Ryan George (10:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff (11:01)
I have a history degree and I grew up during the Reagan era and so I’m very familiar with
how seductive it can be when somebody in a position of power tells you, I’ve got it. You don’t have to do anything. You don’t have to change a thing. Just sit back and let me handle it I’m going to make your life better. And know, nine times out of 10, they’re full of shit, but it’s still a it’s a seductive message. And so I wanted to, I wanted to highlight that and also get at
Ryan George (11:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (11:39)
what would drive somebody to think. The only way things are gonna get better is if I fix them. If I’m in charge, I’m the one who has the vision, nobody else knows what they’re doing. If you just give me the keys, I will make everything better for everybody. And you know, I think that’s…
Ryan George (11:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (12:03)
can’t think of a single time in human history that that point of view has been correct, but I can understand where it comes from. And in this case, the villain in the story is motivated by a lot of pain and feels like he has endured a lot of hardship that was unnecessarily inflicted by the universe and he’s there to set it right. And yeah, again.
Ryan George (12:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff (12:30)
I think the only way life works is if people go through hardship, but I can understand, you know, feeling like if you could just snap your fingers and make it go away for everybody, then that would be great.
Ryan George (12:41)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think you say, you know, you said to some really, I think, really illuminating, even for me, it’s like that it’s the it’s seductive having that, you the answer, right? Just like I can take care of everything. And I think especially in a world where that’s so divided and so complicated and so hard to, you know, know what, who’s telling what, what’s the truth. I think that’s the easy way is just, all right, I’ll let you know, this person says they can do it. All right, we’ll go with them. And yeah, it’s unfortunate, but I think it does make for an interesting
Jeff (12:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ryan George (13:11)
I think, know, a villain that can say that and, you know, inspire that kind of, guess, trust or follow, whatever you want to call it in people. definitely is interesting. Now, I guess, question. So with your kind of background, your background in history and just the kind of complicated nature of the kind of story you’re trying to tell, how much did like research come into play in writing the story? You know, how much history and research based is it? Or how much of it is just kind of, you know, you just, you know,
pen and paper or know, typewriter, and just writing it, right?
Jeff (13:44)
Well, I think one of the advantages of writing a supernatural comedy, anchoring your story and fantasy is that you can just make stuff up. That anytime you back yourself into a corner, you could just invent something to make it better. But when I was writing this, I envisioned it as a middle grade story.
I was told after I was done that it was not that, but when I was writing it, I peppered it with a lot of cameos from historical figures in an effort to… There are a lot of jokes. It’s kind of a goofy story, but I wanted to anchor it with other things. And one of those things was mystery lessons. Shortly after dying, Langley meets Albert Einstein.
After that, meets J Edgar Hoover. You get to meet Edna Griffith, who was sort of a Rosa Parks before Rosa Parks. I don’t know how many people know about her. I’m big fan of Howard Zinn and I found out about Edna through Howard Zinn. She lived in Iowa and she did kind of the same thing that Rosa did, where she wasn’t going to sit where she was supposed to sit. And so she pops up.
To give a little bit of a history lesson in the story, you meet the first female librarian in Los Angeles. Tom Petty shows up. There are a couple of other cameos later in the story that I don’t want to give away, but that’s kind of a big part of how all that manifested in the story was that I wanted to, I don’t know, take advantage of certain dead people to move the story along. Yeah.
Ryan George (15:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. So what was the process of choosing those historical figures? Was it that there’s a message I want to send and I need this character to send it? it, I really like, you know, I’m interested in this person. Like, how did you come to those decisions? Or was it a variety of reasons for, you know, coming to the different historical characters or figures that you have in the book? And then guess secondary, how close, how true to that person did you try to make the characters, you even as far as their, like how their personality?
Jeff (16:02)
Hahaha
Ryan George (16:05)
word choice, like, I don’t know yet, like how much you put into that, that type of choice.
Jeff (16:08)
Yeah, that’s a good question. With Einstein, I don’t know how close you can get. have not read out an Einstein biography. I envisioned him as somebody who was…
Ryan George (16:14)
Yeah.
Jeff (16:22)
kind of this impish guy who thought that part of his function in the story is to explain that the universe has a very wicked sense of humor. And if you have ever felt like, you you get up one morning and just like everything’s out to get you, it’s because the universe has decided that it’s your turn to play some pranks on. I imagine that Einstein would find that very funny. I don’t know if that’s true.
Ryan George (16:33)
it
Jeff (16:52)
With J. Edgar Hoover, you know, there, I don’t know how much you know about him, but there were, there’s a lot of rumors about him being kind of.
He publicly was very straight and narrow, very against anything transgressive, but apparently in his private life, he maybe liked to dress up in women’s clothing and stuff like that. So when you see him in the store, he’s wearing a, do know who Carmen Miranda was? Yeah, you’re somebody with like a pineapple on their head and that’s her.
Ryan George (17:24)
The name sounds familiar, but I’m not.
yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, got it, okay. Yeah, okay.
Jeff (17:34)
That’s what he’s doing when you see him. When it came to Edna, I don’t know a lot about her other than what she did, but I just kind of imagined that she would be no-nonsense and she would not put up with any tomfoolery and that she would be willing to…
put her neck on a line to make sure that everything was going to be okay. Later in the story, you meet Tom Petty and kind of all he does is complain about what a bad neighbor Johnny Carson is.
Ryan George (17:59)
Yeah.
Yeah
Jeff (18:12)
That was just there to make me laugh. So I don’t know. I took a lot of poetic license with this stuff.
Ryan George (18:13)
Yep.
Yeah, that’s fine. So now so you do really so you so the book kind of mixes comedy, supernatural elements, obviously, and mystery was that was it challenging? Was it challenging for you to kind of balance these different genres? Or do you find it pretty easy to make everything kind of work as you’re writing the story?
Jeff (18:37)
found it pretty easy. I’m not a big fantasy reader. I haven’t been since high school. In addition to never believing that I would write a novel, I certainly never would have thought that I’d write a fantasy novel. Yeah, I think as a writer, I sort of believe that if you know who your characters are, they will tell you what they’re supposed to do. And that…
Ryan George (18:47)
Yeah.
Jeff (19:05)
is essentially what happened this time. I knew the premise. I figured out who the characters were. And then I just, this sounds very corny and stupid, but I just trusted them to tell me where they wanted to go. And that’s sort of what happened.
Ryan George (19:20)
Yeah. Yeah. But think that’s a really interesting way to put it. Because I think about it in a similar way in that, like, I think really important when I’m writing is like, know, stakes are important and consequences are important. So whenever I’m writing, I’m always writing with that in mind. Like, what are, you know, what should they be doing? How should they act? What are the consequences of these actions? And so in that way, a lot of times your characters are writing your story for you. Because if you have a, you know, if you have a developed character,
Jeff (19:33)
Yeah.
Ryan George (19:47)
that you’ve really worked on and that you understand what they would do and what they might do. You know, like you’re going to they’re going to make choices. And, know, I’ve even found it. It does sound corny or cheesy, but like there were moments like I had, I had a couple of moments in my own story that were like, you know, these massive, like in my head envisioned like six cents like twists. And at some point I was like, you know what? This is not going to work. Like, he’s just not going to make that choice. And sure I could do it for like shock value and for like the, for the twist, but like,
Jeff (19:52)
Yeah.
You
Yeah.
Ryan George (20:17)
he’s not gonna do that thing. So I can’t have it happen. So I had to like rip up a couple of ideas. know, over time it’s like, it’s not that brilliant, it’s derivative and whatever, but like, you know, I’d gone maybe 10 years of thinking this is the big moment. And I was like, no, it’s not because it’s not earned. And so I totally can understand that, like that approach of like letting the characters kind of write themselves or figure things out.
Jeff (20:41)
Did you go in knowing how it was gonna end?
Ryan George (20:43)
No, I see. You know, it’s funny. That’s the one thing I’m not quite worked out. You know, I think that was the biggest thing I think for the so let’s say, you know, if I’m working on this story 20 years, let’s say, I, never I broadly know how it ends, but I don’t know how it ends. you know, I don’t know, the I don’t know the like, you know, it’s like, have 90 % of the story done. I understand where it ends, but I don’t know what that 10 % how it’s going to get there.
Jeff (20:57)
Okay.
Ryan George (21:09)
And I’ve made a lot of progress. But like, I think that’s part of it is I had an idea early on with this is what it’s what’s gonna happen. It’s like, no, that’s not. And so still trying to figure out what, how am I gonna get there. But I think that’s part of it right now is like, I’m just now writing that like last few chapters that I’ve been holding off on for a few years. I think I got to this point. Yeah, it’s like I need you know, I can know I know the, you know, I know, like the epilogue, right? I know, like the last moment, but I don’t know how
Jeff (21:25)
It’s tough, right?
Ryan George (21:34)
to get there. If you have any advice on that, well, did you, did you know how your story was going to end or did, you in a similar boat?
Jeff (21:41)
think I was in the exact same boat that you’re in. mean, spoiler alert, I knew the good guys were going to win. I knew that what I think what I knew more than anything was that knew I didn’t want it to be the stereotypical big battle. I think a story like this, if it’s adapted to the screen, it always ends with a lot of special effects and explosions and all that stuff.
Ryan George (21:49)
Yeah
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (22:11)
I knew I didn’t want that. I wanted it to be more internal. I wanted it to be quieter. I wanted it to be more a thing about the villain understanding what he had done and understanding why it was wrong and understanding that he needed to let go of the things that were weighing him down. What I struggled with was, you know, A, getting to that spot that you’re talking about and then B,
Ryan George (22:12)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff (22:42)
I think in the first draft, was much more abrupt. was just like, okay, you’re right. give it, and I needed to make it longer and more involved and bigger. yeah, do think it’s sticking the landing is tough. when you, even when you know where you want to go, that those last three or four steps to get there, they’re very important.
Ryan George (22:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Especially I think, you you bring up a good point. think we’re so kind of trained to, especially when we’re dealing with fantasy or action or genre titles, we’re expecting the big blowout at the end. so sometimes it takes some nuance and some kind of a very steady hand to be able to navigate you through that without it being as crazy as everything else. I think that’s where a lot of things lose me.
Jeff (23:14)
Yeah.
Ryan George (23:36)
personally is like, you know, it once it gets to the crazy action, I’m totally on board if there’s a reason for it. And I know what’s happening and what the stakes are and everything. But a lot of times it’s like, all right, well, we got to get to that big action beat. So let’s just get there. And then, you know, that’s where a lot of things that I’ve really enjoyed will lose me in the end, just because like it’s just action insanity, you know, just for the sake of it and not giving you a reason. I think, yeah, I think for me personally, like that’s where I figured things out was like, I don’t need that.
Jeff (23:49)
That’s tired. Yeah.
Ryan George (24:05)
And actually, one of the things that we go with with my own ending, it’s like, there was one moment I figured out part because I didn’t want to do the obvious thing that was like, this is amazing. Like, this is great. know, for me, it’s like, that’s what the story needs. And now I just have to figure out the other part of the ending. So yeah, it’s like, you know, I think you always get something better, smarter, more interesting, you know, by not just going the, you know, the well-traveled route, I guess. Yeah.
Jeff (24:06)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Endings are hard, yeah.
Ryan George (24:33)
So let me ask you, now with your own skepticism, has any of that changed in writing this? you still, any more belief in the supernatural or God since writing about it or not? I think I know the answer, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff (24:40)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
No, I’ve always felt like anything is possible. I don’t believe any of this stuff, but anything is possible.
died and I found out that I was a ghost, think I’d be like, cool, well what comes next? It wouldn’t be insulting to me. wouldn’t. Yeah.
Ryan George (25:02)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think that’s thing. think people get wrong sometimes because I’m not religious. don’t I don’t I’m not that’s I’m not like the crazy, you know, like for atheists is going to like start arguing with people who believe in God. It’s like, no, if you believe you’re great, no problem. But it’s always kind of that funny point where people will kind of be like, well, what’s going to happen if you if you find yourself, you know, in the afterlife and like, all right, cool, great. Like, awesome. I mean, I have no yes, I have nothing against it. It’s not going to make I’m not going to be upset as long as I’m not like.
Jeff (25:09)
Yeah.
Alright.
Yeah
Ryan George (25:29)
in hell or burning or something, like, you know, like that’s, that’s fine. Like that’s life, I guess. You know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Although like my, my first thought is, well, I’d probably think that I’m going crazy. Like, you know, like, so what happens if you see God? It’s like, well, I’d probably think I’m going crazy and you need to lock me up. you know, don’t know.
Jeff (25:30)
Hahaha!
As long as I’m not in hell, yeah, that’s good. That’s a good qualifier. I hope that doesn’t happen.
Hahaha
You
Ryan George (25:55)
So, a question for you guys, as somebody who is a writer, a prolific writer, and you have written nonfiction before, did you feel like, what about your writing, do you feel like helped you in writing this novel? And then is there anything about writing so much nonfiction that you feel maybe held you back a little bit, that you needed to work through?
Jeff (26:21)
I don’t know if this is unique and I don’t know how to explain it, as much as I thought it was an impossible task to write a non-fiction book and then be proven wrong, I still thought that would be easier than trying to write a novel. And I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if other people share that.
Ryan George (26:43)
Okay.
Jeff (26:50)
I just had it in my head that even though I had written a couple of nonfiction books, that was different somehow from writing a novel.
And ultimately, I think that that just kind of turned out to not be the case. mean…
When you set out to write a nonfiction book, you’re trying to cover a topic and you go from start to finish. When you’re writing a novel, you have a story in mind and you go from start to finish. They’re really not that different in that way.
Ryan George (27:18)
you
Jeff (27:28)
I don’t…
I think the main thing that I learned from writing this is that I could do it and now I’m starting to try and do it again. So, yeah.
Ryan George (27:37)
Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s like anything. You once you get past that, that whatever the barriers are, you know, it gets you through it. You know, I felt like so like I’ve written a bit near definitely not not not at any level, you know, close to what you what you’ve done is in your career. But I definitely wrote a little bit for, you know, a couple of websites and magazines. And I have two books that were like fitness related that I published. And I think the challenge I found was always the
the voice, like I feel like when you’re writing on and that’s not always the case. Some people have a great, you know, really great voice for nonfiction. But for me, I always feel like, well, I’m writing nonfiction. I’m just, I’m telling what it is, right? It is what it is. And then for me, I think the fear and that’s where I felt like a little imposter syndrome was more like, you know, I’ve to write this as a, I’m not just telling my story, but I’m telling, you know, I’ve got to tell this in a voice that’s going to engage people. I think that was always like the scary part for me.
Jeff (28:16)
Yeah. Yeah.
I think the challenge, I don’t know which websites you wrote for, but for me, I have written for years at a time, I have written on a freelance basis for numerous websites. And I think that the challenge there, and I don’t know how you feel about this, but what I often struggled with was the idea that doing what I would consider to be hack work for money is…
damaging to the muse. That the longer you do that, the further you take yourself from the ability to tune into what you’re supposed to be writing, quote unquote, what you’re supposed to be writing. That if there is a creative part of you that taking a gig where you just show up every day and you’re writing stories that are handed to you, that that
Ryan George (29:05)
Mm-mm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (29:32)
that you open yourself up to the risk that you’re not gonna be able to write what you really want to write when the time comes, that you numb yourself to that voice. Again, I don’t wanna get too corny, I don’t wanna get too mystical about it, but I do think that there is a muse, and if you don’t show up every day and avail yourself to that voice, to those impulses that you run the risk of.
Ryan George (29:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (30:02)
shutting it off, that when you do want to be creative and when you do want to do something that’s not just work on assignment, that eventually you’re not going to be able to do it. I’m curious to hear how you feel about that.
Ryan George (30:17)
I never thought about it that way, but I think it makes sense. So for me, when I did write, it was on contract basis, but it was never a full-time gig for me. So I always kind of had my full-time work and whatever writing I did was kind of on the side. it was never up until the last couple of years, for the most part, writing was very much like, I’d have a gig, maybe I’d write an article or two for and it was that. So was never…
took over. what’s is interesting is so like I mentioned, like COVID was when I kind of started really writing in earnest and I started writing comics and and then my my in my current job, part of my role is also writing like marketing copy. And I’ve what I find is there’s a certain bandwidth I have. And so we we do like are we like part of what I write is like yearly, like yearly toolkits. And so from about January until about July, I’m just it’s writing, writing, writing.
Jeff (31:03)
Yeah.
Ryan George (31:15)
And, you know, I never thought about it, but it very much coincides with like this year between January and July, I really was not doing anything creatively. And now that I don’t have to until for a few months, like I’ve been much more, you know, since the summer, I had just chalked it up to like, I had finished a comic and I was doing all the marketing stuff on it, but now I think about it. It’s like, no, I don’t think I had the bandwidth for it. And so, you know, for me, I think that was, that’s been the issue more than anything is like, I’m not a, I’m not a prolific writer.
Jeff (31:24)
Hehehehe
Ryan George (31:41)
And I find it like, it’s not, I want say it’s taxing to be creative or whatever, but like, I definitely have a process and my, the process I kind of work through is not very fast. And so if like that, if it’s being used up on something else, it’s very hard for me to like use it then on being, you know, on creative writing. and so, yeah, I see, you know, like maybe it’s kind of my version of like not kind of having the muse or, know, or not being able to speak to it, you know, that, that I’ve got, you know, it’s like, I’m dealing with other stuff right now and I can’t really get to that.
Jeff (31:46)
it is. Yeah.
Yeah.
Ryan George (32:10)
That’s a bit of a challenge, I think. It’s like, yeah, I’m thinking about, yeah, in January, I’m have a hard time. So I gotta figure out how to work through it.
Jeff (32:15)
I think for a lot of people the dream is to do something you love for money, but that’s a double edged sword because when you start doing something you love for money, maybe you love it little less.
Ryan George (32:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that’s, you know, you, or you become disenchanted or any, any, any number of things and it becomes a bit of a challenge. So yeah, that’s, I feel like it’s hard, right? Cause like, you know, doing it as a hobby is hard, is also tough. right. It’s especially like, I think comics is the, where the area, like, you know, writing, you know, for better or worse, like if you’re writing, you know, if you’re just writing prose, it’s like, great. You know, it’s just me and
Jeff (32:44)
Yes.
Ryan George (32:55)
Me and my computer, Obviously then we have editors and agents and all that other stuff if you get to those levels. for comics, it’s like, all right, how am gonna get the money together to pay an artist and a colorist and all this stuff? that is an expensive hobby that I hope at some point I’m at least breaking even on, because that’s a bit of a challenge.
Jeff (32:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, I don’t know that world at all. So do you know, are you friends? Do you know an anchor? Do know a colorist?
Ryan George (33:21)
Yeah, so basically, you know, what’s interesting for me is, yeah, so there’s a lot of forums and websites where you can interact with people. So over the years, like, I’ve been able to connect with people. you know, my main comic, I’ve Gotta Got an Anchor, that’s great. I actually last year, out of necessity, taught myself how to color. And I found that I enjoyed the process so much that I’ve been working on, I’ve been coloring a lot lately. And so I got a couple of gigs coloring, I’ve colored a couple of my own.
like short anthologies, may or may not be coloring my next full length comic. So that’s good in that, you have control over it. think there’s a lot of, when it comes to coloring, there’s a lot of theory in colors I just didn’t know until I started learning about it. And it’s cool, because you do have control over it. And I save myself about $40 to $50 a page if I decide to do that. Because yeah, it just starts adding up. But yeah, it’s like, I’ve definitely connected with a lot of people over the couple of years I’ve really been into it.
And, know, the goal net, you know, this upcoming year is like really attending conventions and, know, just really doing the networking thing, which I’m not great at.
Jeff (34:25)
How did you get drawn into this? you’re, I think you said you’re in your 40s. I’m 50. So like, I know that when I was coming up, comics were very much geared only to straight white dudes. I feel like, I’m just curious, how did you get drawn into this?
Ryan George (34:29)
Yeah. Yeah, so I mean.
Yeah. Yeah, that’s a good question. I am. So I’ve always I always grew up like reading, reading, I grew up reading comics. And even as an adult, like I was not I’m not like somebody who’s buying every issue of, you know, Batman or whatever it is every week. like I would, you know, yeah, exactly. But I I would always, you know, always buy a lot of graphic novels. And so, you know, these, you know, have a decent collection. And, you know, so it’s interesting.
Jeff (35:00)
That’s a very expensive hobby. Yeah.
Ryan George (35:13)
While I was writing this story, I was on a flight one day and I asked my wife, like, I forget what it was, but there was like some contest or something where I was like, I was like, what if I were to write a Batman story, what would it be? That was the prompt for me. It’s like, if I were to write a story about Batman, what would it be? And I came up with the story and by the end, it was on a flight. And by the end of the flight, I was like, this is a good story. I think I could do this without Batman. And so all of a sudden, like I had this whole story and character and idea.
And then, so it was like, okay, now I gotta write this comic. And so that kind of was where I got in. then, but it’s like, all right, let me shelve this. And I just started to write, to just learn to write, because writing comics is such a different experience, right? It’s it’s somewhere in between writing like a screenplay, but you’re thinking in images. So it’s this whole different beast. So I started doing that.
And then kind of got sidetracked because one of my kind of test scripts was pretty good and a couple of editors said, you should work with this thing. So I ended up just in this world of like writing comics and writing franthologies. And then there is this just massive community. have the really big independent comics community. Then you have within the community, there’s a lot of stuff, there are stuff where it’s very much still geared towards straight white men, but then you have a lot of pockets.
for minorities and for LGBTQ and for all kinds of people. So it really is a world now that, especially the indie comics world where there really is a space for everybody. And there are toxic elements, but I think I found it’s been embraced. And somebody who goes to Comic-Con all the time, it’s interesting now, because I live in New York, so I’ve been going to New York Comic-Con forever, and mostly because I’m a fan of pop culture. But now the last few years is like, I’m actually like…
Jeff (36:45)
for sure.
Ryan George (37:00)
kind of a creator. you know, it’s seeing it from a different lens, which has been really cool too.
Jeff (37:02)
Yeah.
My youngest son is, he’s about to turn 17. And so when he got into comics, that was around the time that the Hulk was an Asian kid and Iron Man was a black girl and Thor was a woman. And I thought it was great. I thought this is what comics need in order to thrive. You need to show the audience that it is not just for this one.
Ryan George (37:15)
Okay, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
Jeff (37:33)
demographic that’s had the run of things forever. And so I was kind of excited by it, but then I saw the backlash
Ryan George (37:35)
Yeah.
yeah.
Jeff (37:40)
But I mean, yeah, we’re still in it. The straight white dudes who’d always had this as their sandbox, they saw that happening and they got very upset.
Ryan George (37:48)
Yeah, and yeah, I think that’s been an issue. mean, with anything, with any diversity, you know, it’s like, great, people, you know, it’s nice to see. Yeah, yeah, seriously. That’s, yeah, that can be pretty bad. think, and we’ve seen it firsthand, I think, with a lot of, you know, what’s with a lot of the newer stuff, which I was a fan of, and I’m a fan of some, some of it’s not great, but yeah, it can be a very, very toxic fan base. And when you consider like,
Jeff (37:57)
I see your shirt. That’s the most toxic fan base of all. Yeah.
huh.
Ryan George (38:17)
the creator and his own beliefs and what is based on it’s like you guys like you like if you talk to him you probably would hate everything about him and anything he believes in like I don’t understand it you know
Jeff (38:26)
Yeah.
I know. It’s like these MAGA people who get upset when they find out that like Willie Nelson is a liberal or that rage against the machine, you know.
Ryan George (38:33)
Yeah, exactly. It’s like, what did you Yeah, that’s probably the most ironic, I think is like, I it’s like, have you listened? Yeah, like, come on, like, like, I that I will never for life me understand. Like, I mean, just like, I’m not a big like, I’m a person I love music. And I’ve always been like, I can listen to a song a million times and almost not listen to lyrics until like, the million one time. But like, come on, like, how do you not know what range is talking about?
Jeff (38:41)
Were you not paying attention?
Yeah.
Ryan George (39:03)
is the most ironic thing ever. But, but, know, I definitely like to get back to what you’re saying. Like, think that, like, seeing yourself in this stuff has been, you know, really important to and, you know, it’s like, I think, you know, I’m glad that it seems for the most part, like the big, you know, I think at the same time as I think we see them pull back on certain things that like, you know, they’re not like canceling. mean, oftentimes they do cancel the, you know, the shows they probably shouldn’t or the ones that aren’t making the money. But like, you know,
Jeff (39:15)
Yeah!
Ryan George (39:32)
It’s like, it’s been, think, the indie comics world, I think, is at least this open space that has really been great to be in. But yeah, you just kind of avoid the toxic people and like, you know, write what you gotta write. You know, I think that’s also, think, it’s just like, it’s expensive, you know, to do this stuff. But I think there’s a big enough audience. Yeah. Yeah, I’m not, that’s the thing. It’s like, I think, know, for a lot of people, it’s like Kickstarter becomes not just a crowdfunding sp-
Jeff (39:50)
Yeah. And distribution is probably a struggle for you too, right? How do you get it out?
Ryan George (40:01)
platform, but really becomes like a platform to market. Cause so many indie creators use Kickstarter that you end up using Kickstarter. It’s a lot of social media and a lot of, you conventions and networking. I think you know, that’s, that’s the part for me that I’m at now is like, all right, I got this book, you know, I’m it’s out there, you know, now I’ve got to really, there’s like the legwork, you know, that you got to do there. how about, how about you, what do you do as far as, how do you market, how have you been marketing besides like doing like podcasts and things like that? Or like, yeah.
Jeff (40:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s just what I was going to say. I think that’s the question that every creator has to answer now. Do I just put this out myself or do I try to find somebody who is going to be my voice for me? When I put out that book about one life to live, I self-published. I actually self-published
accidentally. was, I put the book in the Kindle, you know, the, the, the, the shoot, the hopper, whatever you want to call it. And then I, I thought I was getting ready to schedule the publication and I actually just published it without meaning to. That’s how easy it is. And I had a really positive experience with that. But I think that was partly because when you release something that is so
Ryan George (41:13)
Okay. Yeah.
Jeff (41:25)
so hyper-targeted to a niche audience, it’s very easy to promote. When I was writing this book, I thought, this feels like something that I could sell and I want to try. Even though I know that publishers don’t really do what people think they do anymore and I don’t really have a right to expect a lot from wherever I end up, want to just so I could say that I did it. I want to try. So I spent years.
Ryan George (41:37)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (41:54)
trying to, I spent years querying literary agents and trying to get a deal that way. And it was, I was not successful. It’s a slog. I don’t know how many people you’ve talked to that talk about this, but it’s rough. I think creative people in general are not…
Ryan George (42:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff (42:17)
predisposed to be very good self-promoters. And when you’re trying to find somebody who’s willing to evangelize for you, you have to be in a head space where you’re ready to get no response or to hear no over and over again. that is, again, I’ve been writing about various things for money for a long time. And I understand when you put something out in the public space, you’re…
Ryan George (42:31)
Yep. Yeah.
Jeff (42:45)
You’ve got to have very thick skin. You’re handing your work over to the world and you have to be prepared to take whatever response you get. But still, when you’re querying, when you’re pitching, that takes a toll. so it took me a few years, although I was not being very…
Ryan George (42:46)
Yeah.
Jeff (43:11)
deliberate about it. I didn’t do it all the time. I needed to be in a space where I was willing to just be like, okay, it’s time for rejection. then eventually I found this publisher, they’re a small publisher, emphasis on the small. And I am kind of doing this myself. There’s another writer named Jeff Giles who
Ryan George (43:17)
Yeah.
Mm.
Jeff (43:38)
worked for Entertainment Weekly, he worked for Time Magazine. We know each other, we’re kind of buddies. And he published a novel, I think like 10 years ago. And I remember him coming to me when he signed his deal and saying that his publisher was disappointed that he wasn’t me because I had more Twitter followers. Because that’s the kind of thing that they look for. They want to know how much, you know, what voice you’ve got, what kind of… Because they expect you to…
Ryan George (43:56)
Wow, yeah
Jeff (44:07)
shoulder the burden of so to answer your question, it’s just me. I’m lining this stuff up by myself. And so I’m immensely grateful to be talking to you today.
Ryan George (44:19)
Yeah, what do I know? I know that process. It’s like, I think that’s I think that’s probably a lot of creatives, right? It’s like not having the it’s like I don’t have the marketing gene and I have the hard time, hard time selling myself or, you know, not even selling myself like evangelizing for myself. Like you said, you know, it’s like that’s what you really have to become. And I think that’s a challenge. It’s kind of hard to talk yourself up so much when when you’re in this space that’s so much about rejection and and
Jeff (44:22)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ryan George (44:46)
like, you know, that you never, you know, some of those don’t quite think you’re good enough or things can be better and just be like, no, I gotta say this is the best thing ever. And then just, that’s what I gotta say. And let, you know, if you like it, great. If not, then onto the next person. Yeah.
Jeff (44:59)
There’s that part of it, but also I think you write because you want it to resonate with people. And it would be lovely if it resonated so hard that a publisher came along and they were like, we’re going to tell everybody in the world about how great you are. Not just because it feeds the ego, but because that part of it is exhausting. You want the work to speak for itself. You want to know that you’ve done a good job and that…
Ryan George (45:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
yet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (45:28)
There’s something there that people are willing to beat the drum for on your behalf. And I think more people are talking about it now than they were before, but I still think there’s this myth that once you sign that contract, your troubles are over and that somebody is gonna…
Ryan George (45:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I you’re right. Like, I think I learned that. So like with the fitness books, was with a relatively small press. But that that was my shock too. It like, wait, you mean like it’s out there. You need me to do this? What do you what are you guys doing? Like they posted on their Twitter and like that’s it. Like, you know, it’s and it’s like it was cool to see it like in bookstores. But like, it’s like, yeah, you need to you got to, you know, do the work.
Jeff (46:03)
Hahaha
Yeah. What are you doing? Yes.
Ryan George (46:16)
And I think the first one did not do all that great because I was not prepared for it. And I think the second one, you know, did better and has done better because partly because, you know, I did some of that legwork, you know, early on, you know, early on and it’s released to get it there. Cause yeah, yeah, you’re right. Like I think it’s one of the, it’s like a myth of the industry, unless you’re like, unless you’re already a celebrity with a million, millions of followers and a book that’s going to, you know, sell just on your name alone. Like you’re, you’re doing legwork, whether it’s self published or.
you know, small press or whatever you do.
Jeff (46:46)
Yeah. And even if you have a million followers, I don’t know what the math is. I don’t know what the throughput is on, you know, if you have a million blue sky followers, I’m not going to say Twitter now. How many of them are going to buy your book? Right. It’s probably 20 % maybe if you’re lucky. Like it’s, people don’t think about this stuff and it’s, I did an interview with somebody relatively recently who told me that to be considered a mid list.
Ryan George (46:51)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. know, right.
Jeff (47:16)
I, she, she probably meant indie author, but she just said, if you want to be, if you’re, if you’re to be considered a mid list author, you’ve sold 12 copies. And, you know, the.
Ryan George (47:24)
Yeah, it’s like that’s not making a living for the amount of work that you put in for it. Yeah, but no, it’s something ridiculous. think I had heard, you know, wasn’t 12, but like I think I heard something where like, you know, to be on like to be on the bestseller list is not an abnormally like you would think, bestsellers got to be millions of copies and it’s not like it’s no thousands or something. And you know, first week sales, you know, something crazy that like, wow, I did not realize like
Jeff (47:31)
No! No! No.
Ryan George (47:54)
It’s it that’s what it’s it with all on the flip side like yeah, cuz not that many people are gonna buy books. So it’s like you really have to
Jeff (48:01)
Yeah, and it’s the same deal with records. mean, what’s the guy’s name? I want to say his name is Amos Lee.
This was probably 20 years ago. He had a number one record selling, I want to say it was 10,000 copies. You know, it just, people have been trained to believe over the last couple of generations that art is meant to be free.
Ryan George (48:15)
What
Yeah, no, that’s a very fair point. think we really it’s been rough on the, you know, it’s been rough on the music industry, I think. And then I feel like, you know, AI is now big, you like my best friend’s a musician, a songwriter. And like, yeah, you’re probably out of a job at this point with with some of the stuff that this stuff can do now. It’s like, you know, I mean, you know, yeah, like touring musicians and like, you know, if you’re if you’re playing out, it’s fine. But it’s like you’re just writing like whatever, you know.
Jeff (48:39)
my god. Yeah.
Hahaha
Ryan George (48:55)
theme song for, you know, music for like commercials or something like that. All that stuff, it’s just taking everything and then like,
Jeff (49:02)
I know, it’s bad.
Ryan George (49:04)
Yeah, yeah, it’s bad. And I don’t think I was no like, you know, we’re getting to that, like, you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube, you know, moment at this point where, you know, I’d say like, this is this, you know, we’re at the point where, like, you know, where Facebook was where, know, or social media where there needed to be some kind of guardrails put in place. And there weren’t, you leading to what we’ve got, you dealing with now. And like, we’re at that point, I think, with AI, where I think there’s value in it. But like, there really needs to be some guardrails and
That’s not happening anytime soon. So that’s gonna be a huge huge problem So now so what so what’s next for you as far as I know you mentioned Writing, you know writing another story. Are you writing another story? About Langley. Are you doing a whole different story? Like what’s what’s next for you creatively?
Jeff (49:35)
No, it isn’t. You’re right. You’re right.
I left Langley out there. The book ends on a very open note. I like those characters. I like knowing that they’re still out there. And you know, if enough people buy this and there’s sufficient demand, I could be persuaded. I don’t have an idea for their next adventure. The next thing, I’m working on three things right now. I’m working on two non-fiction books and a novel. The novel, you ever seen Chinatown?
Ryan George (50:12)
and
Jeff (50:20)
All right, so the novel is kind of like Chinatown, but with jokes. It’s a detective story that takes place in modern day LA. And the similarity is that I think when this guy solves the mystery, it’s not gonna matter, because there’s too much money involved. But that’s, I’m about 20,000 words into that. And then I’m working on…
Ryan George (50:23)
Okay.
Jeff (50:44)
One non-fiction book is called Death by Power Ballad. I’ve been working on that with a couple other writers for about 10 years, and it is primarily a collection of essays about classic power ballads, like these old songs by Poison and Def Leppard and bands like that. And so one writer has taken, he’s written these essays about these songs, and then I and another guy,
Ryan George (50:47)
and
Okay.
Jeff (51:09)
We are going down this list. There’s like 60 of these songs and we’re talking to the musicians and the songwriters and the producers who made the songs. So like early this afternoon, I talked to a guy who was a lead singer for Kansas for a couple of years in the eighties. And then the other book that I’m working on is called Reset. And it is a collection of interviews with people who have been through experiences that forced them to start over in some way.
whether it’s divorce or serious illness or job loss. And the idea is that these are experiences that all of us are terrified of, we try to avoid and we hope not to go through, but when we do, we frequently emerge stronger and happier and more fully realized versions of ourselves.
Ryan George (52:07)
That’s not so so that so how do you manage? How are you managing all that? You know kind of speaking about bandwidth and creativity? How are you? You know? Do you kind of are you splitting time between them? Do you spend like a couple months on one and then switch over like how you kind of managing working on like these three? know, they sound like they’re hefty projects doesn’t sound like any of this is pretty is easy.
Jeff (52:12)
Eh.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, they’re not. It’s about being in tune with that muse, right? So I don’t know what your writing process is like, but for me, I’m not the type of writer who just word vomits or blurts it out for three, four, five chapters, and then later I’ll go back and fix it. I’ll sit and think about what I’m going to write before I do it. And sometimes,
I hit a wall and I find that the quickest cure for that is to get up and do something else. And so with the novel, if I’m in a place where the words aren’t coming quite as easily, it’s good to have another project to shift to. So, you know, with Death by Power Ballad, we’ve got this spreadsheet and I’m just going down song by song, like…
Ryan George (53:25)
Thank
Jeff (53:26)
what’s the next song we haven’t talked to somebody for? I’m gonna line up an interview with this person and we’ll schedule something and then I’ll know that day. I’m not working on the novel, I’m talking to this guy. with the reset book, I am a straight white dude. And so my wheelhouse is straight white dudes. I’ve talked to a lot of musicians and that’s probably also my wheelhouse. I don’t want this to be that. I want it to be a collection of diverse stories from people.
Ryan George (53:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (53:56)
from a bunch of different backgrounds. And so I’m kind of waiting for these stories to come to me, for me to find out about these people that I should talk to. I’ve got a couple interviews lined up for that project right now. So yeah, it’s it’s kind of a circular thing. I…
There are weeks that are very heavily oriented on one particular project at the expense of another one. And then I go through a couple other weeks where I’m working heavily on something else. And it’s kind of like that. It’s like…
Very often I have found that getting up and doing housework helps unlock a creative block. so this is kind of like that.
Ryan George (54:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, you know, it’s funny that the three things that were on my most creative, this is part of why I like, it’s hard for me to be very kind of prolific with my writing is I find I’m most creative when I’m about to sleep, when I’m in the shower. Yeah. And then like, and music, which obviously is weird. like, obviously I can’t write while listening to music, but music kind of triggers something in me.
Jeff (54:55)
Yeah. Well, you’re not. Yes, the shower. Absolutely. Yes.
WAHOO WAHOO!
Ryan George (55:10)
And so sometimes it might be one song that will take me through an entire story If I was home, I would have that savings. I’ve got I’ve got a dog that like likes attention And when I’m especially I’m recording she’s like not happy if she’s not getting pet or something But yeah, like my most creative is like it’s that’s part of the process is like I’ll if I have an idea I have to run the idea in my head like constantly and a lot of times like the best time to do that is in the shower and that’s when the moment is like I’ll have this idea and then and then it’s like it like vomits out of me
Jeff (55:24)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah.
Ryan George (55:38)
where I’m like, I’m in, I can’t write, I can’t take my phone out. but I’ve got like five ideas and I’ve got to like remember each one to just put in my notes app or something. but yeah.
Jeff (55:38)
Yeah
So you need like you need like shower crayons or something to write all that on the wall.
Ryan George (55:50)
Yeah, exactly. That doesn’t exist. That’s like a million dollar product for like creatives, right? Just like shower crayons would be amazing. Because yeah, it’s like I feel like that’s always when or when I’m like someone when I’m sleeping, like I’ll be you know, I’ll be kind of half asleep. And then it’s like something will pop up into my head or something. A lot of times that so I my phone is right next to me. So I typically it depends on what it is. like
Jeff (55:56)
You
So what do do? Do you keep a recorder by the bed or something?
Ryan George (56:17)
A lot of times dialogue will come to me in my sleep and then it’s like I have to write it down because I’m not gonna remember the word choice or whatever. But if it’s an idea, I might just sit with it. If it’s like one thing. But often it’s like, all right, at the moment I can grab my phone, I’m gonna put, like I have a notes app that will be like for any story, it’ll be like running story notes and I just like it will jot stuff down there. And then, you know, that’s kind of what I’ll do. But like, yeah, it’s always in the showers when that’ll happen. Like I’ll get one idea.
Jeff (56:36)
Yeah.
Ryan George (56:45)
And then in succession, I’ll have several things pop up and it’s like, I got to remember everything and write it all down. you know, and hope I got it the way I thought, you know, I was thinking about it, but, and then that’ll motivate me to then write. Cause it’s like, all right, now I have these ideas and I can sit down and try to write. But, but again, like even for me, it’s like,
Jeff (56:59)
So you do hang on to them then, you don’t forget them.
Ryan George (57:02)
no, no. I mean, it’ll stay in my it’ll stay in a nap with whatever that story is. And yeah, I will. Yeah, I’ll will hang on to it. And that’s what will help me because it’s like it’s it’s like for me with any story idea, it’s like I run it in my head constantly. I jot down notes. I’m running it over. It’s like, and then and then there’ll be a point where like, you know, you hit that you kind of get just over where it’s like, all right, now I can start writing and then I can actually start writing whenever it is down. So it’s a weird process because I can’t just like if you were like, all right, write me a story about.
Jeff (57:26)
Yeah.
Ryan George (57:31)
You know, I don’t know, whatever. I can’t just sit down and write it. I would have to kind of go through this process of like, you know, running the thing in my head. You know, but, but, know, but it’s, it’s fun. Like it’s, it’s like kind of that it’s a fun process to do it. And I always kind of that moment of like, can start writing now is always like the, you know, like light bulb moment is always great. Where it’s like, all right, I know what I want to do. And then, you know, and it’s a lot of times it’s like, I’ll have a line like that’s like, this is how I want to open it. And then that just like, you know, opens the floodgates. Yeah.
Jeff (57:33)
Ha!
huh.
Rest.
Ryan George (58:00)
Yeah, exactly. So that’s always good. So it’s like, you know, hoping, you know, like for me, it’s like that, that last part of this book is like, I’m hoping I’m there and I’m getting, getting close to it. Like I have an idea of what I want. So I’m like, I’m inching closer to it. Cause I’d like to kind of really get, you know, finish this thing in earnest, least, know, finish like the full first draft in earnest until I get to, you know, get to go to that point where I can start rewriting. Thanks. Yeah.
Jeff (58:21)
I’m rooting for you, man. I want you to get there. I hope you do.
Ryan George (58:24)
Well, give me both said definitely. Well, Jeff, this is is one I feel honestly, I’m not just saying that one of my favorite interviews is great. And I’d love to have you back on. So definitely when you know, as the other projects are coming along, I would love to have you back on the show. And yeah, and I can’t wait to read your book. I haven’t had a chance to one question I did have it did you read? Did you record an audiobook for it? Or is that something that you’re working on? Or is that? Yeah.
Jeff (58:37)
Absolutely.
No, one of the big surprises that I had.
get back to like what people don’t think about or know when they sign with a publisher. I have no idea how many copies this is sold. don’t know. I didn’t know what they were going to do when this came out. So I was very surprised to find that there is an audio book and it’s narrated by AI.
Ryan George (59:03)
Yeah.
okay, interesting. Have you given it a listen?
Jeff (59:16)
I played the sample. It’s on audible. I forget what audible calls it. Audible does not obviously call it AI.
Ryan George (59:17)
Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah.
Jeff (59:24)
can’t even, I don’t remember. It’s some euphemism for like, you know, it’s clear that a human being did not read this, but yeah, I don’t know. So yeah, there is an audio book and the sample that I played, it was surprisingly human-like.
Ryan George (59:28)
Yeah.
Yeah
Okay, alright.
Jeff (59:46)
If I had to believe that start to finish, you would listen to it and not wish that you are hearing an actual person, but technology has come a long way. seems like it’s…
Ryan George (59:53)
Yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah. I think again, it’s like, it’s, sucks because it’s like, it’s in some ways it’s great to have technology that can do that. And in other ways it’s like, all right, again, another industry where people are probably going to be out of jobs sooner or later. Yeah. Well, it’s like, I’ll get, I hope my wife doesn’t listen to this cause I’ll give away like a little bit. So for Christmas,
Jeff (1:00:04)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Hahaha
Ryan George (1:00:20)
I wanted to make her a game. have no coding experience. So I basically went into like, yeah, I definitely have to tell her not to listen to this episode. went into went into chat GBT and I was like, I want to make, so she loves word games. And like, you these word games where you get a bunch of words, you type. So I figured out like an idea for game that like, it’s like, it’s similar to many other games, but it has its own unique twist. And again, no coding experience, but I went into chat GBT and was like,
Jeff (1:00:29)
Hahaha
Ryan George (1:00:49)
Could you give me code for this exact game? And sure enough, it spat out. Like I have a functioning game that is really addictive. Like to the point where like I spent a few hours, not, I spent a few hours today, like iterating on it. But at some point I got to a point, there’s, it’s still a lot of work, but at some point I got to a playable version of it. And I was like, gotta get, gotta beat my score. And it is insane because like it would have taken hours of coding to do this. like ChatGBT just did it in like,
Jeff (1:00:59)
hours
Wow.
Ryan George (1:01:17)
few seconds like it’s it’s it’s absolutely insane.
Jeff (1:01:21)
There are reasons that people are so drawn to that technology. It’s a shame that it’s so destructive. As you said, there should be guardrails to make it so that this wonderful thing is used for good instead of…
Ryan George (1:01:24)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it’s like, try to use, have my moral stance where it’s like, you know, I use it, right. But like, I won’t use it for something that I would otherwise pay somebody for. Right. Which I, that’s that’s very, very much rationalizing on my part, but for the most part, like I, you know, like I won’t pay, you know, I’ll pay artists and I don’t, you know, I wouldn’t use it to edit or do anything that like I wouldn’t, but still use it. And so it’s like, yeah, there’s like, you know, definitely like, you know,
Jeff (1:01:47)
Yes.
Ryan George (1:02:03)
you need guardrails because yeah, it’s like, mean, it’s gonna, a lot of people are gonna lose jobs. And that it’s been an interesting thing in the comics world because, you know, obviously there are some people now who are coming up with AI comics. They’re not very good because it’s hard to replicate images and AI art looks, it has a very distinct look. And it’s not that it’s bad, like there’s been AI art that’s like won awards and there’s really interesting stuff that people have done with AI. You can tell for the most part,
Jeff (1:02:29)
But you can tell. Yeah, you can tell.
Ryan George (1:02:32)
And so anytime somebody, know, people are rightfully, I think upset that like people are jumping on and like, here’s my comic, that was all done in AI. it’s like, but at the same time, if you know, like I’m fortunate enough that I can afford to pay an artist, if you can’t pay an artist and you’re a writer, like, I don’t know where that, like, where you draw the line there, like, you know, and.
Jeff (1:02:53)
It’s exactly the same, well, not exactly the same, but it’s similar to digital distribution for music in the late 90s, where, you know, when I started making records, you needed a distributor. And if you couldn’t get a distributor, then you just couldn’t get your music out. And then mp3.com came along and anybody could put out an album and the whole world had access to it. That allowed a lot of people who had good ideas, but
Ryan George (1:02:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (1:03:21)
didn’t have connections or a bunch of money to get their work out. It also allowed a bunch of people who probably shouldn’t have been making music to make music. And I’m sure that’s the same, I’m sure the same thing is true with comics as well, but it’s, yeah, it’s tricky. are, yeah, when there are really powerful gatekeepers around an art form, you just want to tear it down and let everybody in. But when you do that, stuff gets broken.
Ryan George (1:03:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, I remember those days. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And then there’s you still have gatekeepers, right? Like there’s Spotify, right? And YouTube, right? They’re still there. It’s just different gatekeepers now. So you’re kind of damned if you do damned if you don’t, think. Really, you know, at this point, like, yeah. And, yeah, I think I think I think it’s with AI now, it’s like, because it’s so disruptive to every industry, I think that’s that’s this, I think, you know,
Jeff (1:03:51)
that you can’t fix.
And you still have KK. Yes. Yes. 100%. Yes.
Ryan George (1:04:19)
the scary thing about it is that I think they’re, know, depending on where we go, it’s like, you’re gonna answer what we’d like legitimately, we’re have to figure out like, how are how are like, you know, millions of people gonna find work because a lot of people can be out of work, you know, very, very quickly.
We’ll see. But it’s also like, you know, can’t you know, it’s like we’re at that point where you can’t you know, you kind of like you need it or need to be at least familiar with it in so many industries now to hopefully, you know, keep yourself ahead of the curve. So it’s like, who knows, who knows where we’re go with it. But, you know, I think the good thing, I for me, it’s like, at least, you know, like, it’s not creative yet. So it’s like, it’s not super, it’s like, like, like anything I’ve read, like, where someone’s like, I wrote this with the eyes, like, it’s still pretty.
Jeff (1:04:59)
Hahaha
Ryan George (1:05:04)
not, you know, that’s going to change, but like it can’t, it’s, very like generic. hopefully that stays off for a while until, know, in a few, five years when then it’s like creating works of art that like can’t compete with any of anything and we can’t compete with it. And then it’s like, all right, might as well just quit. But Jeff, it was great having you on the show. And again, I’d love to talk to you again. So much stuff we didn’t get to, but yeah, it was awesome. And yeah, I look forward to, I checked out like the first chapter of the book.
Jeff (1:05:10)
so far. Hopefully, yes.
the
love to.
Ryan George (1:05:34)
and I’m hoping, in the, like in, in, mid December, I’m going to have some free time. I’m really like, that’s next on my list of things to read. I love the love the pitch. Like love the idea, you know, the skeptic that the skeptic who finds out that he’s a ghost. Like, it was funny. like, I w I did this, at Comic-Con, there was this thing, it was called like, it’s like, it was like you pitch you, you have a minute to pitch your book idea.
Jeff (1:05:58)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan George (1:05:58)
And a bunch of people were pitching ideas and like this would have been a perfect pitch for that type of thing, right? Like, you know, that, you know, would have been great, you know, cause it’s just so like, that, you know, like grabs you right away. So, you know, love the idea. And yeah, really looking forward to it.
Jeff (1:06:02)
Ha
I look forward to your review, man. And this was a great, I had a great time.
Ryan George (1:06:17)
Yeah. Thank you.